SiIvaGunner Wiki:Moot/Log 2024 December 07

10:56 PM: Ironwestie: Hello. We will begin in 4 minutes.
10:56 PM: Pokemonfreak777: hello
10:56 PM: Notascryptic: Hello
10:57 PM: Eden342: Howdy everybody.
10:58 PM: Ironwestie: The first four items on the agenda for today are:

1. TurretBot - embed YouTube videos on all rip and video pages using either this or this layout
2. Mick • artist ft. placement
3. TurretBot • List of references to SiIvaGunner is not intuitive navigation. Aside from the list itself being incomplete and not consistently linked to, references to a rip being omitted from that rip's page and instead being put on a list page doesn't benefit the readers of rip pages (i.e. the vast majority of our pages) in the first place. Instead of listing the rips that have been referenced alongside the list of rips referencing them in a large unweildly list page, we should instead collect the rips that have been referenced into a category called Category:Rips referenced by other rips, and list the rips that have referenced it on the rip's page.
4. User:TurretBot - The unedited rips with unknown jokes (Unedited rips § Unknown) and Neutral Problem (In-Game Version) - Tomodachi Life should not have pages or should be marked as stubs because the jokes have not been identified.

10:59 PM: Ironwestie: @Mick the Zorotl , before we begin, I noticed that you removed some of Overcast's topics from the list. Did you confirm this with him?
11:00 PM: Ironwestie: Oh, nevermind, I see that another editor accidentally added them back after Overcast removed them himself.
11:00 PM: Ironwestie: @TurretBot #DestroyTheDynablade , are you here and available?
11:01 PM: TurretBot: i woke up 5 minutes ago
11:01 PM: TurretBot: luckily i pre wrote the topic
11:01 PM: Eden342: u woke up just for this
11:01 PM: Ironwestie: Okay. You have the floor for your first topic.
11:01 PM: TurretBot: Around 6 months ago, overcast pointed out we can embed videos on fandom dot com without having to upload videos as "files", and that it would be cool to embed rips on their pages, which Mick, Arthur101, and myself agreed with. Afterwards, overcast and I faffed about the technical aspect regarding putting embeds inside the infobox in a thread. (original discussion start: ⁠help⁠ )

I think the layout where the video is outside of the infobox is the better option because we've generally optimized our wiki experience toward desktop users, and it is the ideal layout for desktop users, as the video embed is larger, as well as being front-and-center. (On mobile, doing this will make it appear below the infobox. There may be solutions to this but it would be more technical talk outside the scope of this moot. If I find one, I'll moot it later.)

I think the easiest way to do this would be to add the embed as part of Template:Rip directly, with ways to override it or turn it off. Otherwise, it would require a script to add it to every page (not AWB, an actual script most likely; if it comes to this, I semirecently used pywikibot to change 3k+ pages on the TTGD Wiki so I could potentially help). I don't want to focus on implementation here or bog this down with a big technical layout regarding exactly how Template:Rip should be changed, we can see what the result is and vote based on that.

We will need to have someone and/or a bot go through and standardize the usage of hatnotes ("For the rip published on Month 20XX, see...") since they have been put before or after the infobox on pages without making a big difference, but since that will now put it before or after the embed this will need to be fixed. This would be avoided using the inside-the-infobox version, but that has its own concession in that there isn't really a good place to put the thumbnail image on the page if the video embed takes its spot, which I think is a worse trade-off.

11:02 PM: Ironwestie: I'll give us a couple of minutes to read this over before we discuss.
11:03 PM: Ironwestie: Right. I have a question. I think your proposal discusses a lot of the how we would perform this, but not why
11:04 PM: TurretBot: For reference, this is the outside layout: User:TurretBot/Snowball Park (Beta Mix) - Super Mario 3D World

And this is the inside layout: https://test-123.fandom.com/wiki/Snowball_Park_(Beta_Mix)_-_Super_Mario_3D_World

11:05 PM: Ironwestie: What kind of benefits would embedding a video into a wiki article have?
11:05 PM: Pokemonfreak777: so ive looked over both implementations of this idea you provided. while im mostly indifferent to doing this, i honestly dont think either layout looks good. the former being front and center is kinda jarring, while the other is sorta just too cluttered
11:05 PM: TurretBot: I think it would be generally more convenient to be able to watch the video and see the joke explanation on the same page. Also, it would be cool
11:06 PM: Pokemonfreak777: ive seen some wikis put the video at the bottom of the page, which might be better but idk
11:07 PM: TurretBot: We have implemented media into our articles already, such as for reuploading certain unavailable content as well as the meme previews
11:07 PM: Mick the Squirrel: several conflicting ideas im getting from this...
- the outside format has two lines of vertical space in the format i'm seeing right now, it doesn't feel right.
- how would a toggle option be achieved?
  - would you have to close the video every time you open a new page, or would there be an absolute "on / off" button?
- it looks better in the inside format imo, since i'm already used to seeing the thumbnail in that space.
  - but: that would make thumbnails obsolete if we absolutely replace that space in the infobox.
  - if we were to use the inside format, could the thumbnail be moved into the "basic information" section? i would prefer this, if we can't do a toggle.

11:09 PM: Ironwestie: Regarding a toggle, this would use EmbedVideo, a MediaWiki plugin that is installed onto Fandom Wikis. I do not believe there is a way to disable it per user
11:10 PM: Ironwestie: There is a fork of the plugin that is more privacy-focused (it requires explicit consent before loading things), but it does not appear to be installed on Fandom wikis https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:EmbedVideo_(fork)
11:12 PM: TurretBot: Is it not possible for a wiki to have custom preferences? (maybe that was gamepedia)
11:13 PM: TurretBot: and then just tack display:none on the div with css or something
11:14 PM: Ironwestie: On the admin side, I do not have the option of disabling "EmbedVideo" globally (or any plugin, for that matter)
11:14 PM: Ironwestie: I do not believe there is a way to set this as a preference, either. EmbedVideo is enabled by default, so it would have to be an opt-out instead of an opt-in
11:15 PM: TurretBot: ?
11:15 PM: Ironwestie: As in: If I am logged out, this page will always show the embedded video. I have to opt-out explicitly
11:15 PM: Ironwestie: User:TurretBot/Snowball Park (Beta Mix) - Super Mario 3D World
11:16 PM: TurretBot: Disabling the plugin entirely is not required?
11:17 PM: Ironwestie: I'm talking about being able to opt-out of this embedding, as Mick mentioned. I'm saying that it would be an opt-out system, if it [a toggle, I mean] is possible at all
11:18 PM: TurretBot: Oh
11:19 PM: Ironwestie: Personally, I don't like either format very much. I don't like how it looks, and I would like to be able to opt-out of it if that is possible
11:20 PM: Ironwestie: From what I can tell, the video embed will load regardless, but the video itself will not play until the embed is clicked
11:20 PM: Mick the Squirrel: i mean i do see value if you want to watch a rip without having to open an additional tab each time
11:21 PM: Mick the Squirrel: have you considered increasing the infobox size?
11:21 PM: Mick the Squirrel: i'll bring up shoutwiki again: https://siivagunner.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Once_Upon_a_Time_-_Undertale
11:22 PM: Mick the Squirrel: this page style is large and puts the video front and center, info can be read as the rip plays. its cool
11:22 PM: Mick the Squirrel: if the thumbnail were mixed in with the info below, i'd be fine with that.
11:22 PM: TurretBot: I don't think we can do that because fandom dot com
11:23 PM: TurretBot: If I'm wrong and we can, that would actually be ok with me
11:23 PM: Pokemonfreak777: except now the text information is very cramped making that part not look good
11:23 PM: TurretBot: Probably better than either of the two proposed layouts
11:23 PM: Ironwestie: I don't think that skin is available on Fandom wikis. The text layout is totally different than what Fandom uses right now
11:24 PM: Mick the Squirrel: i mean as in like a middleground between the sizes of shoutwiki and fandom
11:24 PM: Mick the Squirrel: not as big as shoutwiki not as small as the fandom infobox would be
11:24 PM: Mick the Squirrel: middle size
11:25 PM: Ironwestie: I think UCP (Fandom's styling overhaul) made it so that infoboxes are also fixed to a certain size
11:25 PM: Mick the Squirrel: bummer
11:26 PM: Ironwestie: The infobox we use uses their PortableInfobox module, which has a fixed size IIRC
11:27 PM: Ironwestie: It is possible to change the width using CSS trickery, but things may break.
11:27 PM: TurretBot: Theoretically, we could right-align the embed above the infobox and just have the infobox under it. It probably wouldn't look very neat or anything, but the embed could be wider than the box and be off to the side.
11:28 PM: Mick the Squirrel: and the embed would be shrunk so everything lines up right
11:28 PM: TurretBot: ?
11:28 PM: TurretBot: I thought the point was that putting it in made it too small?
11:29 PM: Nathanthehazingdaze007: alright what are we disscusioning now?
11:29 PM: Mick the Squirrel: discussing ⁠December 7, 2024 moot⁠
11:30 PM: Ironwestie: The sense I am getting is that we are still unsure about this proposal as it stands.
11:30 PM: Mick the Squirrel: if it were kept at the size it is, it would look chunky and weird
11:30 PM: Mick the Squirrel: like you said its not neat
11:31 PM: TurretBot: I mean the width can be whatever we want, but if we're just going to make it the same size as the box, we might as well just put it in the box
11:31 PM: Mick the Squirrel: yeah thats what id be fine with
11:31 PM: TurretBot: OK
11:32 PM: Mick the Squirrel: box format, but the thumbnail is under basic information.
11:32 PM: Nathanthehazingdaze007: well alright then in that case
11:32 PM: TurretBot: You've mentioned in a prior discussion that you would want the thumbnail to be displayed in the full size, despite being under an embed with the same graphic
11:34 PM: Mick the Squirrel: if we cant display the thumbnail in full size in the infobox then shrinking it is the next best option
11:34 PM: TurretBot: I think as long as it can be clicked to show the full picture (a la event avatars) then it would be functional
11:34 PM: Nathanthehazingdaze007: i'm going to stick with them being in the info box tbh. i think them being outside would look clunky
11:35 PM: Mick the Squirrel: a slightly larger infobox with the video and thumbnail inside would be my preferred option, but because of Fandum Restrictions we cant
11:35 PM: Pokemonfreak777: can videos and thumbnails be tabbed together?
11:35 PM: Mick the Squirrel: eh that would be weird too
11:35 PM: Nathanthehazingdaze007: i don't think so
11:36 PM: TurretBot: I think it would be possible, but having the video displayed like it is is a little hacky already
11:36 PM: Mick the Squirrel: theres some rip pages with thumbnails already in tabbers
11:36 PM: Mick the Squirrel: old vs new, image vs rip image (i am still proud of the Cyber Ace page even if it doesnt work because of the thumbnail update)
11:36 PM: Nathanthehazingdaze007: our pages are already simple but in a good say. no need to over complicate them
11:37 PM: TurretBot: Our documentation of old thumbnails is extremely bad
11:37 PM: Nathanthehazingdaze007: .......oh well then
11:37 PM: Mick the Squirrel: and this is something i want to solve in the future
11:38 PM: Nathanthehazingdaze007: actually we might as well have added that in the moot
11:38 PM: Mick the Squirrel: keep tabbers for thumbnail documentation on specific rips! not just the categories!
11:38 PM: TurretBot: Putting it as a parameter would probably make that easier honestly, you could have like an old thumbnail thing and it wouldn't have to be tabbed to
11:39 PM: Ironwestie: Let's focus on the original proposal, which is about embedding videos. We can discuss archiving thumbnails at another time
11:40 PM: Mick the Squirrel: LAST thing i want to say on the subject [of old thumbnail documentation] before i stop is it would be a lot of work looking through which old thumbnails are assigned to each rip but im sure it could be finished eventually

the end

11:40 PM: TurretBot: So it seems that putting it in the info box is the more preferred method
11:40 PM: Notascryptic: In my opinion embedding videos is a good idea. I think it would be the best if it was under the basic information in the infobox like Mick said.
11:41 PM: Nathanthehazingdaze007: alright anyways. i think having the thumbnails in the boxes is in my opinion the best thing.
11:41 PM: Ironwestie: A side effect of this is that we will need to have a bot add the thumbnail used on the rip under the Basic information heading
11:41 PM: Ironwestie: The current rip template automatically adds thumbnails based on the playlist
11:41 PM: TurretBot: It does not do that
11:41 PM: Nathanthehazingdaze007: well maybe i could do that when i can
11:42 PM: Ironwestie: Oh, I'm sorry, I am confusing it with another template
11:42 PM: Ironwestie: Nevermind, that it is for Template:Game
11:43 PM: Mick the Squirrel: i imagine Removed Rips would be annoying to automatically update since some have both the deleted rip and a reupload manually added as the link
11:43 PM: TurretBot: For the record, that would be pretty easy to implement (I did it on the TTGD Wiki). I think (if this moot passes) it would still be beneficial to have a bot go through and change it from image to thumbnail for the sole sake of the parameter having a clearer name, but that's obviously not required / urgent.
11:44 PM: Ironwestie: (Logistics note, I would like for us to move vote soon. We've been discussing this topic for 45 minutes)
11:44 PM: Nathanthehazingdaze007: alright in that case what our pick?
11:45 PM: Mick the Squirrel: so we're voting on

video in infobox, shrunk thumbnail is kept under Basic Info right?

11:45 PM: Nathanthehazingdaze007: yes
11:45 PM: Ironwestie: I thought the two points were packaged as one. Like, if we were to embed videos, we would have to keep the thumbnail somewhere
11:45 PM: TurretBot: Right, we would need to handle this. I think we should add Category:Pages with nonstandard link formatting or whatever it was.
11:46 PM: Mick the Squirrel: thats only including playlists right now i think
11:47 PM: TurretBot: Yes, we will have the embed take the current spot of the thumbnail and move the thumbnail to be a smaller, clickable picture similar to avatars on the event infobox
11:47 PM: Mick the Squirrel: oh nope nope not this
11:47 PM: Mick the Squirrel: the thumbnail should not be tiny, keep it the same size
11:47 PM: Ironwestie:

move the thumbnail to be a smaller, clickable picture similar to avatars on the event infobox

Yeah, that isn't what Mick suggested.

11:47 PM: TurretBot: Oh
11:47 PM: Nathanthehazingdaze007: yeah no
11:47 PM: TurretBot: I got mixed up, then
11:48 PM: Notascryptic: it could be in a tab that you open?
11:48 PM: TurretBot: Are we just going to have it be

<Video>

Rip link: YouTube

11:49 PM: Nathanthehazingdaze007: Hmm looks great to me!
11:49 PM: Ironwestie: I'd like to see an actual example of this before I vote on it
11:49 PM: Nathanthehazingdaze007: actually yeah let's try before we buy
11:50 PM: Mick the Squirrel: if we're postponing voting can we more this to the start of the next moot?
11:50 PM: Ironwestie: Turret, would that be okay with you?
11:51 PM: Mick the Squirrel: he might be typing the code quickly in another tab
11:52 PM: Ironwestie: @TurretBot #DestroyTheDynablade, could you confirm? If you need a couple of minutes we can give you it. Otherwise, I'd like to move the moot along
11:52 PM: TurretBot: Yes
11:52 PM: TurretBot: We can go to the next topic for now
11:52 PM: Ironwestie: Right, thank you.
11:53 PM: TurretBot: you got me 🫣
11:53 PM: Ironwestie: @Mick the Zorotl , you have the floor for:

Mick • artist ft. placement

11:53 PM: Mick the Squirrel: oh yeah thats me
11:53 PM: Mick the Squirrel: okay i wrote this a couple months ago and havent reread it but i probably still agree
11:53 PM: Mick the Squirrel: This proposal pertains to two sections of SiIvaGunner Wiki:Manual of Style/Lists#List of songs featured in rips (which should really be updated on that page to “List of references to musicians” (and “LORTM” for acronym usages)) that I think could be improved.

First:

"Song A" by Artist Alan ft. Artist Bert/Craig/...

(I'm using names instead of letters due to personal preference.)

Current MoS:

*List the rips under Artist Alan
*Add a link to Artist Alan's LOSFIR entry under Artist Bert/Craig/...

Example:
===Artist Alan===
*'''Song A''' (ft. {{t|f|Artist Bert/Craig/...}}): [[[[Rip 1]], [[[[Rip 2]], ...

===Artist Bert/Craig/...===
*'''Song A''': ''see {{t|f|Artist Alan}}''

Including songs artists were only featured in listed within the main meat of the list looks odd. They aren't credited as being the base creator of the song. It is a feature, a promotion. It should be clear cut that the featured artist is secondary creditwise to the central one, without being a blind redirect embedded into the secondary artist's section.

Artist features should be sorted under a subbullet to indicate this, titled “Features” or “As featured artist”.

Difference is displayed here using, for the sake of size, Kendrick Lamar: User:Mick the Squirrel/Rips featuring SpongeBob SquarePants

Revised MoS:

*List the rips under Artist Alan
*Under a subbulleted list titled "As featured artist", add a link to Artist Alan's LOSFIR entry under Artist Bert/Craig/...

Example:
===Artist Alan===
*'''Song A''' (ft. {{t|f|Artist Bert/Craig/...}}): [[[[Rip 1]], [[[[Rip 2]], ...

===Artist Bert/Craig/...===
*''As featured artist''
**'''Song A''': ''see {{t|f|Artist Alan}}''

There's only one bit i'm debating on, as displayed in the MoS above: if within the scope of siiva, an artist's only credit is one feature on one song, would the bullet be visually excessive?

11:54 PM: Mick the Squirrel: Second:

"Song A" by Artist Alan and/vs Artist Bert/Craig/...

Current MoS:

*List the rips under the first listed artist (Artist Alan) on an official source
*Add a link to Artist Alan's LOSFIR entry under Artist Bert/Craig/...
Example:

===Artist A===
*'''Song A''' (with/vs {{t|f|Artist B/C/...}}): [[[[Rip 1]], [[[[Rip 2]], ...

===Artist B/C/...===
*'''Song A''' (with/vs {{t|f|Artist A/C/...}}: ''see {{t|f|Artist A}}''

An interesting crediting format. Yes it is repetitive, but they are credited equally for the creation of a song, so they should be credited equally on our list. Revised MoS:

*List the rips under the first listed artist (Artist Alan) on an official source
*Add a link to Artist Alan's LOSFIR entry under Artist Bert/Craig/...
Example:

===Artist A===
*'''Song A''' (with/vs {{t|f|Artist B/C/...}}): [[[[Rip 1]], [[[[Rip 2]], ...

===Artist B/C/...===
*'''Song A''' (with/vs {{t|f|Artist A/C/...}}: [[[[Rip 1]], [[[[Rip 2]], ...

In short:

- fix the page titling + acronym on Manual of Style/Lists (more of a reminder than a proposal)
- "ft." credit = As featured artist or Features
- "with" credit = equal rip lists
- update manual of style for the above

that is all.

11:54 PM: Ironwestie: Let's take a couple of minutes to look over this before we discuss.
11:55 PM: Mick the Squirrel: oh come on the kendrick page i linked was updated hold on
11:56 PM: TurretBot: I think there's been a mistake on the page you linked
11:56 PM: TurretBot: oh it fixed
11:56 PM: Pokemonfreak777: i disagree with this. a song feature is not different enough to warrant a sub-bullet like this
11:57 PM: Mick the Squirrel: having links whisk you away to a new page mid-list is weird to me
11:58 PM: Mick the Squirrel: a complete undersection saying "hey these songs arent sorted here, you're looking for this" is better
11:58 PM: Notascryptic: I think all of the features being grouped in its own list is a good idea
11:59 PM: TurretBot: I think I agree only with the splitting of bullets that just link to another section, and not even necessarily with the layout you've proposed for it, although it works
11:59 PM: Pokemonfreak777: it really isnt to me. sub-bullets should only really be used if the medium is noticably different, such as being a song vs a visual appearance
12:00 AM: Mick the Squirrel: its parts of the page that take you elsewhere, it hides within the main list and looks weird
12:00 AM: Nathanthehazingdaze007: i think the bullets being there make it more specific to what it contain
12:01 AM: Mick the Squirrel: oh yeah are there any thoughts on the equal crediting thing
12:02 AM: TurretBot: Equal crediting is a bad idea and we should not do it
12:02 AM: Pokemonfreak777: the reason it takes you elsewhere is because including the entire list in two separate places creates two points of failure
12:02 AM: Mick the Squirrel: elaborate
12:03 AM: TurretBot: including the entire list in two separate places creates two points of failure
12:03 AM: Nathanthehazingdaze007: if it looks like this Example: weird al yankovic (ft taylor swift,ect)than that looks fine to me unless it gets complicated
12:03 AM: Mick the Squirrel: what does "two points of failure" mean [asking either of you]

it shows you the list like one would be looking for

12:04 AM: TurretBot: It needs to be updated in two places, and someone might not do it, and any action that effects one list and not the other could cause desync, blah blah blah
12:04 AM: TurretBot: One song one list. Anything else would just be overly complicated
12:04 AM: Mick the Squirrel: ?
12:04 AM: Ironwestie: I agree with Turret. The list would need to be duplicated and updated in multiple places, which means two or more places where an error can happen
12:04 AM: Notascryptic: I agree that having the entire list in two places is too much
12:05 AM: Nathanthehazingdaze007: i also agree with turret in this context
12:05 AM: TurretBot: Can multiple parts of pages be transcluded like that? (i.e. we would need to be able to separately transclude every instance of this across a bunch of pages)
12:05 AM: Mick the Squirrel: thats what i had set up for the spongebob (kendrick) current vs revised subpage list until someone changed it on the main page
12:06 AM: Mick the Squirrel: overlap is a possible issue though with multiple artists to embed on each page
12:06 AM: TurretBot: Cool but what about when Kendrick Lamar and Kennedy O'Brian both have lists part of "K" that need to be transcluded?
12:07 AM: Mick the Squirrel: yeah thats what i was saying with overlap...
12:07 AM: TurretBot: Unless you have a solution to this, it isn't worth discussing transclusion
12:07 AM: Mick the Squirrel: okay we won't do the second one then
12:08 AM: Mick the Squirrel: back to the first
12:08 AM: TurretBot: For the splitting of songs that just link to another list, I think I agree with that part.
12:09 AM: TurretBot: We do that on certain RIOR sections
12:09 AM: Pokemonfreak777: but anyways back to the separate features list, i do not think including a "featured" list as a subbullet is needed because it is not a notable enough distinction
12:09 AM: Mick the Squirrel: would "Features" or "As featured artist" be preferred?

im thinking the second because one could confuse the word "Features" as a hypothetical album

12:10 AM: Notascryptic: Yeah because if I’m looking up an artist the first thing I want see is the things that artist made mainly, not as a feature
12:10 AM: TurretBot: I think it should just be, like, "On other lists" or something.
12:10 AM: TurretBot: Also, instead of sub-bullets, it could be like this: [1]
12:11 AM: Mick the Squirrel: that works too
12:12 AM: TurretBot: To combine both. https://i.imgur.com/tP7qflN.png
12:12 AM: Notascryptic: I agree with this
12:12 AM: Ironwestie: (for screen readers and for the log: The first imgur image is of a list of bullet points for features for Kendrick Lamar under the heading "Features / As featured artist")
12:12 AM: Ironwestie: (the second ~~list~~ imgur link changes the heading to "on other lists")
12:13 AM: Pokemonfreak777: i just dont see the point of making a separation like this. the artist sang on this song so it is in the list. we keep the information in one place to reduce errors.
12:13 AM: TurretBot: That way if Kendrick Lamar composes a song for Super Mario Odyssey 3 Adventures in Atlantic, we can link to the category page for that game where the list would most likely be (it would be inaccurate to list it as a feature)
12:14 AM: Nathanthehazingdaze007: ^i'm sorry this made me laugh more than i sould have lol
12:14 AM: Mick the Squirrel: works

Fan Media based on direct songs should still be sub bullets attatched to the original song though

12:14 AM: TurretBot: yes
12:15 AM: Nathanthehazingdaze007: Yes
12:15 AM: Notascryptic: I’m confused on what exactly these "errors" would be
12:15 AM: Pokemonfreak777: what turret said ⁠December 7, 2024 moot⁠
12:16 AM: TurretBot: Nope
12:16 AM: Mick the Squirrel: this doesnt need to be updated in two places its one link to the main one
12:16 AM: Ironwestie:

It needs to be updated in two places, and someone might not do it, and any action that effects one list and not the other could cause desync, blah blah blah

12:16 AM: Notascryptic: I thought you were talking about the separate list for features
12:16 AM: TurretBot: There is no list duplication here, it is just restructuring the bullets that already exist so ones that link to another list are on the bottom. I think there's been a misunderstanding
12:19 AM: TurretBot: Don't Wanna Know is already in Kenrick's section linking to the Maroon 5 category before this proposal
12:21 AM: Ironwestie: I'm waiting on pokemonfreak to type his response before moving on. I would like for us to move towards a vote soon if that is possible.
12:21 AM: Pokemonfreak777: the reason the lists are the way they are right now is because an artist singing on a song vs being featured on a song is ultimately not really notable enough to be a separate thing like this proposal is trying to do. the only thing the "featured" thing really affects is where the list should be, with the "main artist" making more sense. the featured artist links to where the main artist is so that we dont have the duplication error/desync/whatever you wanna call it. thats also why songs with co-artists are listed on either artist (with no preference) because it ultimately isnt that significant
12:22 AM: TurretBot: It is notable in the sense that it causes us to list a song that doesn't have its rip list listed there
12:23 AM: Pokemonfreak777: it should just be listed wherever the main list is?
12:24 AM: Mick the Squirrel: discussion is kinda going in a circle
12:24 AM: Ironwestie: I think there may be some confusion. Artists featuring is already listed in List of references to musicians
12:24 AM: Nathanthehazingdaze007: yes i am very confused
12:24 AM: Ironwestie: e.g. Pharrell Williams lists ADD SUV (with a link to Uffie).
12:26 AM: Ironwestie: The change is that these features would now be in a separate subsection. E.g.:

== Pharrel Williams ==
* ADD SUV: see Uffie
[...]

...becomes...

== Pharrel Williams ==
[... Pharrel songs...]
=== Features ===
* ADD SUV: see Uffie

12:26 AM: Mick the Squirrel: not a === header section, that would look chunky

just text or a subbullet

12:26 AM: Pokemonfreak777: yes but mick's proposal wants to move that link to a separate list at the bottom, along with any other examples of this. thats what i am against, because i dont think that is necessary at all
12:26 AM: Nathanthehazingdaze007: Eww no. i get it but just no
12:26 AM: TurretBot: === should not be used because it would add a section on the table of contents, which would make that even taller
12:27 AM: Ironwestie: Mick stated earlier that he realized the duplication and decided against it
12:27 AM: Ironwestie: ⁠December 7, 2024 moot⁠

okay we won't do the second one then
back to the first

12:28 AM: TurretBot: OK, I don't think there's any confusion then. We should just vote
12:30 AM: Nathanthehazingdaze007: (alright i am going to go dark in 30 minuets so if we make it to my topic please disscuse it without me)
12:30 AM: Ironwestie: I'm writing the vote now. I will confirm with Mick that I have summarized it correctly, and then we will vote
12:30 AM: TurretBot: I think the only place we've done this on the wiki otherwise is that on social media websites, I added a plaintext "User content:" to soft split the contents that were user-generated and not officially part of the website (i.e. Tweets vs. Twitter)
12:31 AM: Ironwestie: Understood about the subheading bit. That was an oversight on my part.
12:32 AM: Ironwestie: Summary: We will group artist features on List of rips referencing musicians into a sublist under the artist's entry.

For example:

== Pharrel Williams ==
* ADD SUV: see Uffie
[...]

...will become:

== Pharrel Williams ==
[... Pharrel songs...]
*In other lists* [italics]
* ADD SUV: see Uffie

12:32 AM: Ironwestie: @Mick the Zorotl , can you confirm?
12:33 AM: Mick the Squirrel: yeah
12:33 AM: Ironwestie: Please vote with , , or .

====

12:33 AM: Mick the Squirrel:
12:33 AM: Notascryptic:
12:33 AM: Pokemonfreak777:
12:33 AM: Ironwestie:
12:33 AM: Nathanthehazingdaze007:
12:34 AM: Ironwestie: @TurretBot #DestroyTheDynablade , are you voting?
12:34 AM: TurretBot: :Support:
12:34 AM: Mick the Squirrel: @Arthur101 se ele fosse de Ohio ⁉ @eden ?
12:34 AM: Eden342:
12:35 AM: Ironwestie: Voting closed.

====

12:36 AM: Ironwestie: 3-2-2. I need to check whether 3:2 in favor is a pass or reject
12:39 AM: Ironwestie: I don't believe we've actually done a 3:2 split before. The moot procedure says:

Voting: Everyone will get a say in the topic and if it's evident via votes that roughly two-thirds are in agreement, the results will be tallied and the moot will continue. If the topic is highly controversial, a separate consensus can be created in the forum. To vote, respond with either (yes)—support for the proposal—or (no)—opposing the proposal. One can withdraw their vote if one wishes, and remaining neutral is also allowed.

12:39 AM: Mick the Squirrel: wow
12:40 AM: Ironwestie: 3/5 support (not counting neutral) is 0.6, which is roughly two thirds 0.66
12:40 AM: Nathanthehazingdaze007: should we move this to the next moot? (NVM this didn't come how i intended it to)
12:40 AM: Ironwestie: I'm looking through the logs to see how we've handled this in the past
12:41 AM: CYLITM: I just got here, am I allowed to read the proposal and vote?
12:41 AM: Ironwestie: No, the time for voting has passed.
12:41 AM: CYLITM: 👍
12:42 AM: CYLITM: I'll just say personally I oppose it if it means anything.
12:42 AM: Ironwestie: I'm going to rule that 3/5 is not two-thirds majority, so for now the proposal is rejected. The proposal, like any other proposal, may be reproposed at a later date.
12:42 AM: Mick the Squirrel: man
12:42 AM: TurretBot: Crazy
12:43 AM: Mick the Squirrel: okay i guess just move this to the bottom, i'm proposing it again.
12:43 AM: CYLITM: I guess it didn't matter anyways, that's a crazy coincidence.
12:43 AM: Ironwestie: I believe we are at the end of the moot. Turret, are you still planning on proposing your first topic again at the next moot?
12:44 AM: Ironwestie: @TurretBot #DestroyTheDynablade, specifically:

TurretBot - embed YouTube videos on all rip and video pages using either this or this layout

12:45 AM: Ironwestie: ...I will take the silence as a yes. We do not have to do this during this moot.
12:45 AM: Ironwestie: Thank you all for coming.
12:45 AM: CYLITM: Bye